If you want to have influence with people, get curious about how they see and make sense of the world.

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In this episode, Dr. Nancy Popp goes deep on vertical development based on her 35+ years of studying and assessing where people are on the journey. She is one of the foremost experts on the subject-object interview method, which is how we assess Leader Levels.

You will feel like you're sitting in on a college developmental psychology class as Keith and Nancy paint a picture of the vertical development journey in language different to the way we have spoken about it so far.

Nancy Popp earned her EdD. in adult developmental psychology from Harvard University Graduate School of Education, where she worked with Robert Kegan. Her initial work on psychological boundaries has expanded over the years to include issues of identity, conflict, and consciousness. Nancy is one of the foremost experts in the Subject-Object Interview and Constructive-developmental psychology. She uses both extensively in her work as a developmental coach, mentor, trainer, consultant, teacher, writer and researcher. Her book, The New Science of Conflict, co-authored with Dr. Richard McGuigan, is published by SUNY press.

Don't miss this great episode!

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