One word that comes up often in design and innovation is the word "need". "Goals" are central to Alan Cooper's influential "goal driven design". A famous book in Jobs-to-be-Done theory is called "what customers want". And of course the word "job" is right there in the name "jobs-to-be-done". Chairs, rocks, stories, stars, information, music and countless other things do not have "needs", "goals", "jobs" or "wants". But people, animals, organizations, societies do have these things. And they have them because they are what we might call purposeful systems, they can have goals and try to reach them.

The original movement to scientifically study and understand purposeful systems was cybernetics and many important ideas in engineering and AI can directly be traced back to the work from the original cyberneticians. It has had an influence on just about any field one can imagine: Psychology and Architecture to Management, Education and Theatre... you name it! From the beginning, through the work of major figures in the field like Ross Ashby, cybernetics has had quite a bit to say about design, which is what we discuss in this episode.

Our guest today is Paul Pangaro.

Paul is the president of the American Society for Cybernetics which was founded in 1964 and is currently a visiting scholar in both the School of Architecture and School of Design at Carnegie Mellon University. Paul worked for a time at the famous startup incubator Idealab, was the CTO of several startups, and also founded several of his own. He has taught many courses over the years, namely at Stanford, on the role of cybernetic models in the design of products, services, and teams. He is a recognized expert in the cybernetics field of conversation theory, which is central to his understanding of design and which we talk about in our discussion.

You can find Paul at www.pangaro.com on twitter at @paulpangaro.

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