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In a conversation from SAND Italy, Mauro Bergonzi and Shantena Sabbadini discuss how the scientific perspective has influenced our view of reality. Shantena begins with an explanation of the difference between classical and quantum physics. They describe the revolution that began with Galileo and the mathematization of nature, and the abstractions that enabled scientific experiments to be repeated - and list some of the consequences of this viewpoint, which follow from mistaking measurements for reality itself. In response to a comment that it is not just the Western mind that embraces duality, Mauro reminds us that the East had established nondual philosophies - Vedanta, Taoism, Kashmir Shaivism, Buddhism - for centuries before the West began to question the connection between logical truth and facts.

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