From: Agile Podcast E22 - Interview with a Scrum Trainer: Fred Mastropasqua
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A project manager by role, they are middle management.
It scrums done properly. A hundred percent. You don't need a project manager. So let's, let's say we bring you in or Fred, I'm gonna bring you in. I own the company. I can do whatever you want. I'm a CEO. That'd be amazing. I'm going to bring you in, make whatever change you want.
I've got these project managers. I don't want to just fire them all. Cause they're there listen. They're very smart. They can catch on very quickly. They understand my company, they understand my products potentially. And my customer is very deep.
What is their role? Yeah. If I was going into that company, I would typically talk with each project manager. One question I would ask each one is tell me, do you care more about what we're building or do you care more about how we're building it? See what they answer to that because they say I care more about what we're building and why we're building it than they might be a good candidate for product owner.
They say care more about how we're building it than they might be a good candidate for a scrum master. So I start with that to kind of put them in buckets to start with there. Then it's a mind shift training, so now they take CSM class nine, it take CSPO class. I'd probably all of them would probably go to a certified scrum master class.
And then some of them would go to CSPO class depending on where they fall and then repurpose them. We always joke, oh, fire all the project managers, but like really, if you train them properly, you should be able to repurpose them, but then now they're repurpose. But the thing to remember is that they spend years in the command and control style because typically a project manager, once they start a they're the ones to come up with the Gantt chart. They're the ones to come up with a resource list. They're the ones that come up with the budget. They're the ones that come up with a timeline. They're the ones that attract the risks. They're the ones who handle the communication. So it's all on their shoulders.
So the, of course they're used to cracking the whip. Yeah. Like it's my ideas. My plan is my solution. I have to crack the whip. So now you're telling them to shift that mindset over to all those things you're responsible before have now are shared between the product owner, the scrum master and the development team.
Now you're just in charge of the process. That's a hard thing to move your mindset too. And so I think that you train them, you figure out where they might be repurposed, but then you need to closely monitor and coach them for a limited period of time to get used to that. Like, okay.
I know, I understand why you're doing that because that's your old PM coming out of you, but now you're in a scrum master seat. So we'd handle that differently. And this is how and point them as they do those things incorrectly. They're good enough. But as they do those things, that meaning to point them at that moment, like, okay, that's not what yeah.
Letting go is hard. Right. They have to let go of that mentality and it is difficult.
